Posts by drew sagan

8

Is the YMCA now a concience matter?.....

by Aussie Oz in

the following is a little exchange on facebook i had, me playing devils advocate.

now, i am well aware after a search of the wt library 08 that the wbts saw no problem using ymca pools to do baptisms in the 1950s, and then in the 1979 had the big article saying a jw cannot join the y. so is this guy wrong, or has it changed?.

you wroteon january 9, 2010 at 8:25pm.

drew sagan

My wife was DF'd for joining the YMCA a few years back so let me give you our perspective.

As MissingLink pointed out you can "exercise your christian conscience" and join the Y, but the results of the choice are far from certain.

The question is, do the Elders feel a need to bring you into compliance with official Watchtower law? In me and my wife's case, the YMCA was used to try and force us back to meetings (we had not attended for about 4-6 months). Had we joined while we were faithful members, we may never had face official WT sanctions because of the choice. But because we stopped attending under suspicions of apostacy, the YMCA issue gave the Elders something to officially charge us with.

I think it is important to view Elders as enforcers. Sometimes enforces go "by the book" to force compliance and sometimes they do not. This does not fit the image the Watchtower projects regarding uniform obedience to the "faithful slave", but it surely is the reality of the situation (as it is with anybody in charge of enforcement of a particular law or rule)

55

Is The Internet The Worst Thing That Could Happen To The Organization?

by minimus in

jw
friends

the witnesses try to demonize the internet.

in your opinion is the internet the biggest problem for the watchtower organization?.

drew sagan

Yes & No

It is problem because many people are comfortable researching things they are interested in on the net. So in places where the internet is available, I could see it possibly deterring some from joining. However, there is a 'digital divide'. People not familiar with the net or who have limited access obviously can't utilize it. Additionally, I think that for the most part the WTS has pretty good influence over current members. People who grew up in the faith or converted years ago probably are not likely to go "asking questions" at any higher rate simply because the net is there. Considering all of the places on the earth that have limited internet access (i.e. developing nations), it is likely that WT growth in these countries will continue to grow no matter what kind of technology is around.

I believe the Watchtowers biggest problem would be people who share their theology and beliefs (to some degree) rather than those that reject them."Apostates" on the internet pose a very little threat to the organization imo. People will continue to leave, as they always have (just as people will continue to join). I think the big danger for the WTS is if one day members begin to get frustrated and want reform within the group, with the possibility for fragment groups to form facilitated through digital communication.

29

Free load of Watchtower books (tons!), must pick up

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

i've been thinking about getting rid of these books for a long time.

i have bound volumes starting with 1950s up through the early 2000's (not complete, but probably about 35-40 volumes).

i also have about 50-70+ books, including some from the 1950's (let god be true & others).

drew sagan

They are all now sitting at the bottom of a landfill, where they will get the more use than they have gotten in years.

15

For those of you attending college now (or at least recently have)....

by 2pink in

please remind me what the work load is like.

i went to college and took a few classes in my early 20s, and found it all very easy, but i had a lot less responsibility back then so i think my perception was skewed.

now i am 31, married, 2 kids, soon to be 3. i work very part time from home.

drew sagan

I'll be finishing a BA this April. I have a 16 month old, but have the luxury of not having to work at the moment. In order to graduate sooner I took 18 credits last semester and am doing the same this semester. It can be quite a task. I would not recommend doing what I'm doing if you have lots of other responsibilities.

4

Pocahontas = Avatar

by drew sagan in

pretty funny stuff i happened to come across.

thought i would post it for all of my fellow "avatar haters" our there (you're out there, right?).

.

drew sagan

Pretty funny stuff I happened to come across. Thought I would post it for all of my fellow "Avatar haters" our there (you're out there, right?):

63

2009 Annual Worldwide Service Report -- 7.3 Million Publishers

by Joker10 in

china: the number of publishers has increased.

in some parts of the mainland, they can openly go door to door without much interference.

there are actally buildings now used as kingdom halls.

drew sagan

I could be wrong, but I think these numbers reveal something strange.

The retention rate of 2008 was 55.5% (comparing baptism numbers against actual average publisher count increases), yet in 2009 it shoots up to 78.5% despite the fact that the number of baptisms is down. I'll go through and check this again.

63

2009 Annual Worldwide Service Report -- 7.3 Million Publishers

by Joker10 in

china: the number of publishers has increased.

in some parts of the mainland, they can openly go door to door without much interference.

there are actally buildings now used as kingdom halls.

drew sagan

The comparing the baptism #'s to the "increase" # is very important. It shows overall trends in membership retention vs. attrition.

15

The Events That Caused Me to Start Pioneering (way back when...)

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

i was toying with the idea of re-writing my lifestory.

frankly, it would be long.

so i will just do some random experiences instead.

drew sagan

Your story brings back a lot of memories.

I believe I was 19 when I was made a MS, which was a big deal to me at the time. After joining the group at the age of 16 (no JW family), I made "rapid progress". I began to pioneer the summer after I finished high school with the hopes of continuing my "progress". The Elder that studied with me had created the most fantastically idealistic picture of the organization for me. I truly believed that I could somehow make advancement though the org quickly, although I had no idea exactly how it would work. Bethel didn't seem like the right path, and other forms of service (e.g. "going to where the need is greater", missionary, higher leadership positions, etc.) seemed either impractical or distant. There was no clear direction that I could see. Like many young men in the org that I had known, I simply wanted to "work" full time for the organization, yet had no idea how I could make that happen.

I find it interesting how the conditions of your first marriage directed your decision making. I believe I was possibly on a similar path, with one exception. During my pioneering I decided to attend a local college in order to establish a career. Early on I kept thinking of Bethel, but by the end of that first summer I knew that sticking with the organizations suggestions would not help me. I was attending college, pioneering and working part time. I can really sympathize with your situation regarding being very young and managing a lot of different tasks. I got married at 20, moved to a new hall, and was made account servant.

I eventually started a business that achieved some short term success, which allowed me a semi-legitimate excuse to back away from being MS (the elders at the new hall didn't seem to be in a hurry to appoint me, thank goodness!). While my wife wanted to pioneer, it was mainly because "that's what you are supposed to do". We both had enough work to do in order to push of "theocratic advancement".

Knowing the background of your marriage at a young age provides some additional context to the problems you have described during your time as a missionary. I find it very interesting that you both were selected for Gilead. Have you ever described the application and selection process on this board? During my time in the WT, I always heard about how detail oriented the organization was towards appointments. Getting into Gilead regardless of you and your wife's problematic personal history is very interesting.

29

Free load of Watchtower books (tons!), must pick up

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

i've been thinking about getting rid of these books for a long time.

i have bound volumes starting with 1950s up through the early 2000's (not complete, but probably about 35-40 volumes).

i also have about 50-70+ books, including some from the 1950's (let god be true & others).

drew sagan

I suppose nobody is interested? Off to the dumpster they go!

29

Free load of Watchtower books (tons!), must pick up

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

i've been thinking about getting rid of these books for a long time.

i have bound volumes starting with 1950s up through the early 2000's (not complete, but probably about 35-40 volumes).

i also have about 50-70+ books, including some from the 1950's (let god be true & others).

drew sagan

Mouthy,

Different Bible Students groups continue to reprint those books in new editions.

http://www.chicagobible.org/component/option,com_virtuemart/page,shop.browse/category_id,1/Itemid,19/